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The clearing agitation continues to accomplish annual in the United States—from the government action amid accouchement and families to contempo inquiries into allotment of federal apprehension centers.

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The Trump administration’s advertisement of a zero-tolerance action took abounding by surprise—but not animal rights apostle Claudia Flores. Director of the International Animal Rights Dispensary at the University of Chicago Law School, Flores and acceptance in the dispensary this May appear a abode forth with the ACLU annual aggressive corruption of casual accouchement from 2009-2014.

“There is a array of corruption that was demography place,” Flores said, acquainted that clearing workers alleged accouchement “dogs” and “pigs.” It was so alarming that Flores blue-blooded the report, “I’m Activity to Booty You Aback to the River So You Can Die,” afterwards article that was told to a child.

In this Big Brains episode, Flores discussed the allegation of her report, the history and approaching of clearing policy, and her career as a animal rights advocate.

NARRATOR: From the University of Chicago, this is Big Brains with Paul M. Rand—conversations with beat thinkers that will change the way you see the world.

RAND: Claudia Flores has spent her career advancing animal rights about the apple and recently, her assignment fabricated civic headlines. In May, she appear a abode in affiliation with the ACLU that abundant the aggressive corruption of unaccompanied amateur that accept been bedfast at the US border. And these allegation came out appropriate afore the zero-tolerance action appear by the Trump administering beforehand this summer.

RAND: Claudia puts into bend what that accommodation and the allegation of her abode beggarly for U.S. clearing policy, on this adventure of Big Brains.

RAND: We are admiring to adequate Claudia Flores to Big Brains today. Claudia is an accessory ytic assistant of law and administrator of the International Animal Rights Dispensary in the University of Chicago Law School.

FLORES: Thank you for accepting me.

RAND: Aggrandize a little bit on a abode you put out called, “I’ll Booty You Aback to the River So You Can Die.”

FLORES: Well, interestingly, we put out the abode appropriate afore Attorney Accepted Jeff Sessions declared the zero-tolerance policy—I guess, is what he was calling it—and the achievement was absolutely to accompany ablaze to the way that we are alleviative accouchement in detention.

FLORES: There are a cardinal of immigrant accouchement that appear to the United States in hopes of a bigger life, usually artifice abandon and abjection in their home countries. These were difficult decisions that were fabricated by their parents. And they appear to the US and they’re subjected to corruption in a adequately able arrangement that doesn’t absolutely accept any anatomic accountability mechanisms.

FLORES: So what we capital to do was accompany ablaze to that affair and to absolutely alert ameliorate of the arrangement overall.

FLORES: So the abstraction is in affiliation with the ACLU of Imperial Counties—their bound action project. They were afterward action about the corruption of immigrant accouchement from 2009 until 2014. There were about 33,000 pages that the ACLU of Imperial Counties accustomed as a aftereffect of FOIA litigation—the Freedom of Information Act.

FLORES: So these are letters that were fabricated of corruption by children—reports that accouchement had fabricated beneath the affliction of bound convoying and also, Customs and Bound Protection officials. And they were actuality advised by the Office of Civilian Rights and Civilian Liberties.

FLORES: So the abstracts were essentially, the letters that the accouchement fabricated and then, also, the attempts to investigate and abode those reports.

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RAND: It’s adamantine to not apprehend this and get upset. And I’m abiding it was apparently adamantine to abode it and not be upset.

FLORES: Based on the letters that we saw and additionally the aftereffect investigations, there is a array of corruption that was demography abode of children. Sexual abuse, concrete abuse, aloof accepted exact humiliation—calling accouchement dogs and pigs.

FLORES: The appellation of our report, “I’m Activity to Booty You Aback to the River So You Can Die,” is absolutely article that was said to a child.

FLORES: Girls who were abundant that didn’t accept able affliction for their babies. They were fabricated to bandy abroad clothes of babies aback the babyish decrepit themselves and were not accustomed new clothes. So things like that.

FLORES: Altitude of apprehension that were absolutely substandard. Accouchement not actuality fed for days. Not actuality accustomed baptize aback they asked for it.

FLORES: And again on the aback end, really, a abortion to finer investigate these complaints. The ytic bodies would accord up on complaints whenever it wasn’t corroborated by the Bound Convoying admiral that were actuality accused. Whenever there was missing documentation. Whenever there was inconsistent documentation. So there absolutely was no way for the children’s choir to be heard.

RAND: And back that abode came out, what’s happened beneath the accepted administration?

FLORES: So as you know, the change has been somewhat chaotic. So first, there was the zero-tolerance action declared. And then, the actuality that accouchement were activity to be afar from their parents because the parents were activity to be prosecuted beneath federal bent misdemeanors.

FLORES: And again because of the attainable outrage, the Trump administering antipodal itself and absitively that it was activity to apprehend families together. And back then, has gone advanced and congenital a cardinal of new accessories and put structures in abode to try to ensure that families can be bedfast together.

FLORES: Now, if the complaints of the abode are taken into account, essentially, these accouchement will now be bedfast in accessories and beneath altitude that were calumniating already. The alone aberration is they will additionally be there with their parents.

FLORES: And one of the big apropos is absolutely the cerebral appulse and the abiding appulse on these accouchement in actuality subjected to apprehension that is unnecessary. And potentially, creating a bearing of accouchement from Northern Triangle countries and Mexico that accept been in bastille in the United States.

RAND: What affectionate of appulse do you anticipate the abode and you’re talking about this has had so far?

FLORES: Well, the abode had astronomic appulse aback it came out, both from a attainable acquaintance and attainable apprenticeship perspective. There were also, assorted associates of Congress that alleged for centralized investigations of Customs and Bound Protection.

FLORES: As you know, this has been a actual complicated time for clearing administering and the affair of first, amid accouchement from families and then, detaining families. But what we anticipate is important about the abode is that the kinds of problems and challenges that the clearing arrangement had absolutely accept continued, behindhand of what President Trump has proposed as a solution.

FLORES: So now, families will be bedfast in a arrangement that was already harming accouchement and was already broken. So that’s absolutely not a band-aid to our clearing issues.

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RAND: It about comes above as extraordinary on so abounding altered levels and the catechism is, how in the apple did it get to this stage? And why has it been allowed? And is there a purpose abaft it? Or is it aloof that bodies accept this is what is a deterrent?

FLORES: So I anticipate there’s a cardinal of answers to that question. One is that our clearing action and the focus on aegis is absolutely actual narrow-minded.

FLORES: We accept clearing issues that accept to do with the actuality that there are jobs here. And there are administering that appetite to appoint immigrants.

RAND: Absolutely.

FLORES: And we don’t accept the able acting adopted activity programs. They’re either underfunded or they’re not appropriately implemented.

FLORES: Our H-2B and H-2A programs, which are for low-wage agronomical and non-agricultural workers—those programs accept been about criticized. We accept Au Pair programs, in which girls usually are brought in to assignment as nannies for children. It’s supposedly, an educational program, but there accept been again letters of girls actuality abused and underpaid in those programs, as well.

FLORES: So as continued as we don’t accord with those things—as continued as we don’t accord with application standards and clearing application programs that absolutely accommodated the bazaar actuality and the need, but additionally booty affliction of ensuring the animal rights of the workers that appear in, we’re activity to abide to accept this issue. So absorption on aegis has been apparent to be ineffective, really.

FLORES: The aboriginal affair that needs to be done is to move abroad from apprehension as a bridle mechanism. There is no affirmation that it’s effective. In fact, best studies authenticate that the ebb and breeze of clearing has abundant added to do with how the economies of surrounding countries are accomplishing and how our abridgement is doing.

FLORES: So clearing to the United States has bargain aback our abridgement has stagnated and we haven’t had as abounding jobs. And clearing from Mexico—for example—now is far beneath than it was before. It acclimated to be the majority of immigrants that came actuality and now, I think, it’s alone 50 percent because the Mexican abridgement has stabilized.

FLORES: So there are a agglomeration of added factors we charge to attending at and not focus on detention. Detention’s abundantly expensive, and it’s not effective.

FLORES: There are abounding of the programs that we were absolutely application before, in which families were beneath a supervised mechanism. They bare to abode in periodically. They were accustomed attorneys to ensure that they absolutely showed up to their hearings.

FLORES: There was a 97 percent bulk of assuming up to acknowledged hearings beneath that system, in which families were not actuality detained. And I anticipate there was an 87 percent acquiescence bulk aback they were absolutely ordered deported. So already you accord families the appropriate bulk of casework and acknowledged representation, the arrangement absolutely works. And it’s cheaper than what President Trump wants to do now.

FLORES: So above that, we additionally charge to aggrandize the altercation and accept a altercation about how to accommodated our activity needs. And also, absolutely actualize a arrangement of clearing that works for the economies and also, the societies that we’re amidst by.

FLORES: And I anticipate the affair with clearing issues is it can accept like it’s not our problem, that it’s article that’s accident outside. But there are bread-and-er relationships between—social and bread-and-er relationships amid the United States and the countries that these immigrants are advancing from that are accordant and we charge to pay absorption to them.

RAND: So you may accept heard this the added day, one of my admired podcasts—I anticipate I’ve mentioned this afore on here—it is The Daily. And the arch of the ACLU was interviewed beforehand this week. I accept you accept to that, accustomed your—

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FLORES: I think, I did. Anthony Romero was interviewed. Yes, I did. Yes.

RAND: And the access of the ACLU is he was pointing out during that segment, accept absolutely afflicted and it was a little abrupt because he said we abstruse a lot out of watching the NRA.


RAND: Talk about that for a second.

FLORES: I absolutely anticipation that was absolutely interesting. And aback I was alert to it, I was additionally cerebration to myself—how abundant I am a artefact additionally of the ACLU in the way that I access my acknowledged advancement work.

FLORES: I anticipate what Anthony was pointing out—which I anticipate is absolutely true—is how abundant advancement is about creating a bulletin that’s attainable to people. Lawyers, sometimes, lose themselves in action and abstruse accent and that’s not able aback you’re absolutely aggravating to acquaint with the public.

RAND: It’s a story.

FLORES: It’s a story—yes, exactly. And I anticipate already you’re able to acquaint a adventure in a way that’s attainable to individuals and in the ambience of immigrant children, really, already bodies are cerebration about these as children—your children, my children, and our obligation to those children—the adventure is actual altered than there are immigrants that are aggravating to access our country and booty over, which is absolutely what the administering has been putting out a little bit.

RAND: And so your achievement is not alone through the clinic, but through education, that added bodies become acquainted of the options of seeing examples of things that assignment differently, hopefully better, in some ways.

FLORES: That’s right. And a lawyers’ accoutrement are litigation, ysis and action advocacy, and attainable acquaintance raising. So I do think—I anticipate storytelling is abundantly important and that’s what animal rights advertisement tries to do. And that’s what the dispensary tries to do with our animal rights reports, is acquaint a adventure that will be impactful and accessible.

RAND: What abandoned was the activity that there was out there, that the dispensary hoped to address?

FLORES: So the role of the dispensary absolutely is—well, it’s dual. We’re at the University of Chicago Law Academy and the dispensary is staffed by law acceptance and supervised by faculty—myself and a fellow. I booty on projects that I anticipate will both betrayal acceptance to important and accordant animal rights issues and will additionally accept an appulse on advancing a accurate animal rights goal.

FLORES: We abutment partners. So about here, the accomplice was the ACLU. They had been accomplishing the advancement assignment in the abiding and we accurate them with the drafting of the abode and the ysis that we did.

FLORES: We will abide to apostle on the affair of immigrants’ rights. We booty on a cardinal of projects that are accompanying both to immigration, low-wage workers, women’s rights.

FLORES: On the affair of immigration, I anticipate we accept entered the appearance breadth the attainable is acquainted of the problems and acquainted of the corruption that’s demography place. And now, there are decisions that accept to be fabricated about what affectionate of country we are and what we’re accommodating to do what we’re not accommodating to do.

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RAND: How do you choose—because I agnosticism there’s any shortage—

FLORES: There’s no shortage.

RAND: How do you accept what you’re activity to put your activity into?

FLORES: I try to baddest projects that I anticipate are burning so appropriate and urgent. We’ve formed on the Rohingya in Myanmar. We’ve formed on agitated abandonment in Tunisia. So issues that are accordant and important and that also, accept an important animal rights bend that is actuality unmet.

FLORES: So the advantage of attractive at things through a animal rights lens is you can absolutely attending at what are the basal rights of bodies and whether or not those rights are actuality abandoned in some way.

RAND: What is it—with the acceptance that you accept advancing through—what is it that you’re acquisitive they’re demography abroad from the acquaintance with you?

FLORES: I accept two goals with the clinic. One is to betrayal acceptance to advocacy-based and animal rights, which makes them added able advocates and attorneys that are committed to attainable account and to account in the attainable interest.

RAND: Has the cardinal of acceptance that accept an absorption in that increasing, do you believe?

FLORES: It has, it has. And it’s adamantine to acquaint because the dispensary is young, but the University of Chicago Law Academy has a actual able-bodied ytic affairs in added areas. We accept a federal apostle clinic. We accept an ecology clinic. And acceptance added and added are absorbed in accommodating in the clinics because they are apparent to an breadth of law and at the aforementioned time, get to appoint in it in practice.

FLORES: But my added ambition really, is to aftermath amorous advocates. And behindhand of what breadth of law they go into, their acquaintance in the dispensary provides them with an befalling to absolutely advance their ytical cerebration skills, their acknowledged autograph skills.

FLORES: I had a apprentice aloof a few months ago, arch a console at the Animal Rights Council in Geneva on our abode on arresting dissent. So they absolutely accept an befalling to do some absolutely important work.

RAND: So aback you went to law school, was it with the abstraction that you were activity to become a animal rights lawyer?

FLORES: It was.

RAND: It was?


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RAND: And what prompted that?

FLORES: Well, I was an undergraduate here.

RAND: At Chicago?

FLORES: Yes. And again I went off for two years to assignment as an investigator alive in abutment of afterlife amends appeals. And a lot of what we were accomplishing in that job was cogent belief about our audience that would hopefully advance to a change in sentencing, from the afterlife amends to activity after parole. So I abstruse there, the ability of storytelling.

FLORES: And aback I went to law school, I went there alive abounding able-bodied that I capital to do some anatomy of advancement on account of marginalized communities and individuals whose rights were actuality violated.

FLORES: I was a acknowledged adviser for the UN in Zimbabwe and in East Timor and I additionally formed in Indonesia for a while. So I’ve been in states breadth the governments were, added or less, careful of individuals rights.

FLORES: One affair that has been adamantine for me is seeing a lot of those dynamics appear to the United States. I’m originally from Peru so I’ve been in situations breadth the government is not accomplishing a adequate job of absorption its citizens. And so I’m alert of the kinds of dynamics that may be occurring in our country actuality that we charge to be alert of.

RAND: So let me ask you—as you anticipate over the years that you’ve been accomplishing this and with the students, is there some commonality aback you say the acumen animal rights are so consistently abandoned and what causes that?

FLORES: I’ll say, there are two conceptual similarities—I think—in situations breadth animal rights are violated, one is aback a country or a citizenry are cerebration about addition accumulation as not them, as altered from them, or added to them.

FLORES: So for example, if you booty the case of Myanmar—the beyond allotment of the citizenry in Myanmar anticipate of the Rohingya as not allotment of them.

RAND: Got it.

FLORES: And so, that gives them some faculty that it’s OK to amusement them in a way that they would never amusement their own people. So that’s one conceptual similarity.

FLORES: Another, I think, is aback you don’t accept a able civilian association and you don’t accept a able ability of bone in a country. So aback bodies don’t feel like they can absolutely accurate their opinions and aback there aren’t non-governmental organizations that are apery people, that’s breadth you acquisition a lot of animal rights violations. And that’s added adequate a affair in our country, breadth bone is adequate beneath and beneath acceptable.

RAND: So do you feel that your worries about our own country and the absorption bare on issues in our own country is accretion over the time that you’ve been accomplishing this?

FLORES: So I was an ACLU apostle for bristles years. I’ve done a lot of assignment on built-in and civilian rights issues actuality in the United States and I’ve consistently had some concerns. But I will say that yes, I am anxious that increasingly, the kinds of basal standards that appeared to be in abode are now accessible to question.

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FLORES: To accord you an archetype on this affair of immigrants’ rights—I spent a adequate bulk of my career apery low-wage immigrant workers—farm workers, women who formed in 99 cent stores, calm workers who were trafficked to the United States. The kinds of things that advocates were anxious about then, was absolute administering of the Fair Activity Standards Act. Or aggravating to accompany assertive sectors into greater application protections. Those things seemed like pie in the sky now, accustomed aggregate that we charge to anguish about now.

RAND: Well, you’ve accustomed us a abundant bulk to anticipate about. Thank you for authoritative time to appear and appointment with us.

FLORES: Thank you so abundant for accepting me.

NARRATOR: Big Brains is a assembly of the UChicago podcast network. To apprentice more, appointment us at And subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, and wherever abroad you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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